More about IF

[AciD]

I'm arguing with one guy, who uses IF for a long time, and here are some questions I don't really have the answer to ( I looked into Kiefer's links to research, didn't find the answer)

Where is direct proof that muscle degradation starts after 14hours of fasting?

I only found that SIRT1 downregulates mTOR, however I didn't find any research confirming this time period.

Anyone?


And: Almost every research in Kiefer's article contains a test but after 36 hours or so.
Is there acutally any test that says that this 20h period does damage described in the IF articles by Kiefer?

[Naomi Most]

If you listen to BioJacked #2 (the one about Autophagy), Kiefer gives the answer.

Basically, there aren't enough studies directly on IF to produce the conclusions.  Kiefer had to connect the dots among studies that aren't directly about IF but study similar endocrinological phenomena, as well as delve one level deeper into biochemistry, to come to his conclusions.

So there is not "direct proof" of what you're referring to, because no one has done the direct experiments to try these things out.  "Proof" is a slippery concept in science anyway...

[AciD]

Oh, I see. Thanks!

[AciD]

http://www.ajcn.org/content/85/4/981.abstract

How about that one?
I know that it only confirms part of IF, that it shouldn't cause muscle mass loss. And significant fat loss.
(I have no idea why Kiefer's muscle dropped - maybe he was TOO lean?)
But Still no idea about the "antianabolic sygnaling from IF".
Just dropping it here, cause maybe someone is interested.

Cheers!

[AciD]

oh,oh!

And one more thing - one comment from Kiefer's article

I honestly think that Berkhan replying here would just be to clarify how what Kiefer has outlined isn't LG.

Anyone who knows what LG is would be pouring through this article looking for macro breakdowns and timing, of which I can't find any. The only mention of macro timing is in reference to CBL, which isn't so dissimilar to LG anyway.

Not sure he even needs to respond to this, except to explain to noobs who might be reading that LG isn't what Kiefer did. It's not like he needs to worry about losing his waiting list of clients

CBL looks really interesting though.. need to do some more reading

Cheers for the read.and part 1 too!

Can anyone tell me Why he said that Lean Gains does not apply here?
I'm kinda confused by now.

[DH Conrad]

oh,oh!

And one more thing - one comment from Kiefer's article

I honestly think that Berkhan replying here would just be to clarify how what Kiefer has outlined isn't LG.

Anyone who knows what LG is would be pouring through this article looking for macro breakdowns and timing, of which I can't find any. The only mention of macro timing is in reference to CBL, which isn't so dissimilar to LG anyway.

Not sure he even needs to respond to this, except to explain to noobs who might be reading that LG isn't what Kiefer did. It's not like he needs to worry about losing his waiting list of clients

CBL looks really interesting though.. need to do some more reading

Cheers for the read.and part 1 too!

Can anyone tell me Why he said that Lean Gains does not apply here?
I'm kinda confused by now.

There are many protocols for IF, Leangains just being one of them.  From what I can gather from Kiefer's second IF article, he started eating at 7 (and "re-fed like nobody's business [gluttony would be an understatement]), that doesn't read like leangains, sounds more like Warrior's diet or a variation thereof. On leangains, he would have started eating at 4 (going on the assumption that Naomi stated Kiefer goes to bed at around midnight) and followed some macronutrient cycling and won't be going above or below a certain calorie boundary centered on BMR.

[AciD]

Oh, I see, although I posted this under the article, I'll re-paste it here:
How about the fact that when mTOR gets low, the AMPK gets high, and vice versa.
AMPK takes over the role of mTOR?


This comes from a guy that I mentioned in 1st post. He says after about 2 hours after consuming meal, we have a lot of amino-acids in our bloodstream, and thus mTOR is minimal or non-existant, and it's role is taken by the AMPK.

And fast does not shut down AMPK.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15251868
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18562038

[AciD]

No answer for that one?